Here’s a lightly edited transcript of a conversation David Tieche and I had this week about the developing story out of Cornell University, where a former student filed a lawsuit and said she was raped at a campus fraternity. It’s part of our Week in Faith series in our podcast. Scripture references are at the bottom.
JON
The whole situation, the pieces of the facts that nobody … is disputing are horrific and so deeply concerning. And everybody's heart should go out to the woman who experienced this. So I just want to say that up front.
The thing that I don't want to do is look at this situation and immediately take off the shelf all of the situations that I know about, that people have been through, women have been through in fraternities and say, that's exactly what's happening here. You know the movie, The Accused that so many of us saw coming up, and realized that these kind of horrific acts happen? I don't want to take that and layer that onto it and say, oh, I know what's going on here, right? Because there are real people's lives that are involved, there are real details.
And hopefully there are still some facts that can be discovered so that justice occurs, whatever that is. So I don't want to come from a perspective of assuming that I understand enough about what happened to know that I'm going to have the right scriptural application to the facts of that matter.
But here's what I do think I know, Dave. And tell me what you think about this. The whole setting of what was happening in that place, the type of community, the type of pleasure seeking that happens when you've got alcohol and drugs and all of those things: There's something that God is calling us to experience, has built us to experience, that is genuine community. Genuine love, and genuine attention within who we are, intention within who we are.
And so many of those things get twisted, get violated, when drugs, when all of these other factors enter into the scene. So maybe I'm even stepping now into what I didn't want to do. But I think that's the safe ground, is to say that there are types of relationship and connection that we're looking for that are genuine, that we're supposed to have and that we want. And then there are other things that are out there that happen. And how do I now, as a follower of Christ, try to elevate within my sphere of influence, within community, that good version of relationship, of connection?
DAVID
Jon, can I ask a clarification? Are you saying, look: I know that young men join fraternities and they have since time immemorial. Because the need for brotherhood, the need for unity, the need to be with other people is so deep and core and elemental. This is just what young men hunger for across the board. But we have to be unbelievably careful about the object and the aim of those communities. How are they shaping and forming us? What are they shaping and forming us toward?
And does Jesus have anything to say to those types of relationships and communities? Otherwise, they can actually malform us and form powerful bonds that allow us to do actually evil things or things that are not toward God.
JON
That goes a couple of steps further than what I'm saying, but that's directionally right.
I believe that, yes, we are looking for community and connection. And connection for me is the smaller word. You can have connection with just one other person. Community tends to be broader than that. And even a one-to-one connection has some level of ongoing intention behind it. It has almost a culture. A friendship, an acquaintance, that's headed somewhere. That's about something. And I think too often in society – and I know I'm putting a lot on social media and digital and all of that – but it's like, oh, I "connected" with this person. I "friended" that person. But there's no intention behind it that we can see. Somebody's got an intention behind every connection.
And I think what we're called to as followers of God is to be really mindful of what those connections mean and not to let them get cheapened. So I don't know what happened in this situation, but I think part of what we do know is that this woman went to this fraternity house thinking that she was going to connect with a friend. And that's not what happened. How that starts, but where that starts heading.
DAVID
If I can ask another clarification, Jon: It seems like you're also saying, I'm trying to get, like, a definition here too. For example, for a long time I thought that if you're really a friend, that means you're going to support me no matter what I do. But that's not really friendship.
As I understand it biblically, Jesus makes love the highest ethic. And when Jesus elevates love, he defines it in a very particular way that is not very Western. Basically what Jesus says is love is seeking the very best for someone else, even if it costs you very much. So it's seeking to connect with other people, like you said. But it's seeking their best, even if it costs you a lot. And that is sacrificial friendship. And that is friendship with an end in mind. And for Jesus, it's connection with His father.
It's not doing anything that would break that connection with the Father. It's becoming a certain type of person. That's kind of the end goal of what Jesus said. And the ethic is love. If that gets off base – man, you can use your friendship, your connections with people, your community to walk down roads that do not end in love.
JON
Absolutely. I think that's absolutely right. I love that definition of wanting the best for someone else, even if it costs you. To me, that's a definition of love. But the piece that I think it's tempting to overlook is the "best." There's a value system embedded in that. What does "best" mean? Not everybody is going to agree on what “best” means. And that value alignment has to do a lot with how that love gets expressed.
DAVID
100%.
JON
Some people think that "best" has to do with pleasure or happiness. And some people, I think we view that as coming from a different place. So we're looking for a different "best" for those we love based on those values. And that's the piece. That part of it, I think I'm ready to say – I'm not trying to get into fact patterns that I don't understand, about exactly what happened in that situation. Though I know enough to know it was awful. And to know that our hearts go out to the woman who went through that horrible experience. But the community connection and intention part is the piece that I think we need so much to hold on to.
DAVID
It's unbelievably tragic, but it's a story that's written a thousand times across a thousand college campuses. Are we helping each other to be people of love who actually look at each other and say, I'm going to try to help you and serve you in a way that is best for you and not just take from you? I mean, whatever that looks like, in small or horrifically big ways.
JON
I've had some conversations about this over the past week. And I just want to touch on one type of conversation that I've had, which is that, "Hey, I hope the fathers are sitting down with your sons and saying X, Y, Z." And you are blessed with a son as well.
DAVID
I am. You have two.
JON
I've got two boys. And part of my response to that, the last time I had that kind of conversation was, I feel like if you're just having the conversation when something like this happens, it's too late. There's a big piece of us as fathers, as men, having to demonstrate how we love and how we connect, so that the twisted versions feel wrong to our boys.
DAVID
Deeply wrong.
JON
And I'll call out my oldest. He sort of got kicked out of a group chat with some guys that he knew in high school because – nothing at all along these lines – but the way they were talking about certain things, he was like, 'I don't think that's right.' He became kind of a party pooper in the group chat.
And as a dad, I tried to support him in that. Not like, oh, well, just try to get along, you know, you don't have to call out everything. It's like, actually, if there's a conversation happening in a room that you're in with guys that you know that feels wrong to you, Yeah! Say something! And if they can't accept that you feel differently about it and they want to exclude you, good!
DAVID
I don't know if I've told you this. I had a really stirring conversation. It really affected me. It was a couple months ago. I was talking about my son with a mentor of mine. Now, this mentor is not a Christian, but is a person I deeply respect. And I was talking about, my son's going to this school and he's involved in this ministry and this club. And he goes to church with their college group and he's got these friends, and he's going into this internship.
And the mentor said, look. As far as I understand Christianity, I don't really care what you say his faith is. Does he love what is good and hate what is evil? And I was arrested. I was like, oh. He just put it in such stark terms.
I think that's exactly part of what it means to walk with God and to love God. Part of loving God is not just exclusivity to God or devotion to God. It is devotion to the way of God, which is to love what is right and to hate what is evil. And when things are broken, you try to put things right. You love what's right. You do what's right. And you try to set things right if you can. That's part of what it means, through the entire biblical witness, of what it means to actually love God. And sometimes I think we might divorce it to private devotion, but I think this mentor was trying to say, it's not. You must teach your sons to love what is right and hate what is evil.
And then afterwards, Justus and I had really long conversations about what that looks like. And I'm happy to say he does hate what is evil and love what is right. But we had long conversations about what that looks like.
JON
That's tougher than it sounds. Because the temptation is to love what is right and mind your own business.
DAVID
Right.
JON
Part of the get-along aspect of our culture and society is, yeah, speak up for what you believe in. And then if other people are doing something different, you really don't have to say anything. And I'm not saying that we need to wave a flag or, you know, carry a bullhorn around for everybody who has a different opinion. I'm not saying that.
What I am saying – and this perhaps does touch on some of the details of this Cornell situation – If we find ourselves in a room, in a group, in a community that starts heading in a direction that is at odds with our values, there's a way to speak up in a way that's clear, without being unnecessarily violent or fractious. But sometimes it can jolt people into a different action. We have an obligation to give an account for what we believe.
Some relevant Bible passages:
Romans 12:9 — David’s mentor's love what is good and hate what is evil: “Love must be sincere. Detest what [is] evil; cling to what [is] good.”
Amos 5:15 — "Hate evil and love good; establish justice in the gate. Perhaps the LORD, the God of Hosts, will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph."
John 15:13 — David's reflection that love is seeking the very best for someone else, even if it costs you: "Greater love has no one than this, that [he] lay down his life for his friends.”
Micah 6:8 — David’s call that when things are broken, you try to put things right: "He has shown you, O man, what [is] good. And what does the LORD require of you but to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?”
1 Peter 3:15-16 — Jon's assertion that we have an obligation to give an account for what we believe: "But in your hearts sanctify Christ [as] Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope [that is] in you. But [respond] with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who slander you may be put to shame by your good behavior in Christ."
